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Thread: Rotary ignition systems
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mazilla
1st Gear
Posts: 44
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posted July 31, 2002 12:37 PM |
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OH yah! Jeff is the man...Seems to work for me...I had a bunch of ignitors laying around waiting for something to do and now it's used again. Not only that but got to use that old 79 harnessed dizzy too...MAN, can't get over it!!! So friggggin simple. we used to chuck those wired dizzys too! good thing that I was the one to pick up those throw aways. I am definitely a pack rat. I even pick up non mazda parts that I think are rare...
Man...I must of stared at that pile of parts for ten years. If jeff was a girl...
Anyway, THANK YOU JEFF...I owe you one in some way or another...
PS: Funny my last rotary guru was named jeff but never got his last name...he moved up to washington state or so it was rumored and he was the only other guy I new that reallly like the mazda rotaries. All my other poser friends just bought new cars over the years and that whole story about whine whine, it sputters and back fires and it gets bad MPG...every excuse to get a friggin honda (which I respect but will NEVER own one).
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ROTARY POWER!!! V8 is a great juice for consumption.
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 01, 2002 10:56 AM |
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I got out of the habit of throwing things away when I realised that I actually needed some of them. I'm a pack rat too. I'm hanging on to my '76 and '79 points dizies. No point tossing them out.
I've got the perfect way for you to help me out. How many ignitors do you have left? I need one more for my MG project. I'd prefer to get three, but I doubt anybody would want to part with that many. I figure when I get an engine for my truck, which will most likely have two ignitors on the dizzy, and my truck's old engine goes into my MG, that I'll be short by one ignitor. What do you say?
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 02, 2002 12:46 AM |
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Hey Jeff, I'm almost done with the DLIDFIS. But how exactly am I suppose to hook the leading to ignition switch??
B/C you said in your write up to not use the stock one (i believe it's white/brown) cable?
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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mazilla
1st Gear
Posts: 44
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posted August 02, 2002 08:21 AM |
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Jeff: I most certainly would float you one. I will have to go up to San Francisco and check in my mom's garage since I left most of the good stuff there. I had a few here at home and I was diggin way pst midnite last week to find them. I know (unless I am hallucinating) I have another bag of them somewhere...I sweatin it just thinking about it. Almost had to go drive 40 miles or so after midnite just to find out. Don't you hate that, when you can't just place where you saw things? I should get to mom's in the next week or so and I will dig hard.
I must admit that why I have so many is that I really hated my local Pick your part because they towed one of my friends r100's and stripped part of it saying that it was already stripped of certain internal parts. Right! This happened over ten years ago. SO we retaliated by going to the their junk yard and getting everything that could fit on us...I mean rx2 koni's down my upper pant legs, distribs, ignitors, crank angle sensors, emblems and all the little things that disappear into my old army jacket. I even tossed a 13b header over the fence! I still use that header today on my truck...maybe I'll get bad karma for that but they really did a number on that r100.
So if you are not afraid of the wrath of karma, I will gladly send one your way when I get a chance...I owe you that much for the headscratchin' you had to do to come up with this wonderful setup. Send me your address if you can. my email is dann@excelonline.com
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ROTARY POWER!!! V8 is a great juice for consumption.
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 02, 2002 11:05 AM |
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bcrx7, you could use the stock ignitor harness on Trailing only. The Leading pickup needs its own wires to go from it over to the ignitors.
mazilla, you have mail :)
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 02, 2002 11:57 AM |
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I know that, but I don't need any wire connected to the ignition switch then??
Just two wires from the magnetic pickup to the both leading ignitors???
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 02, 2002 12:21 PM |
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The wiring diagram at the top of the DLIDFIS article shows a basic circuit path from the key to the coils and ignitors.
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 02, 2002 04:59 PM |
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I don't get this.
So setup I have:
From leading mag. pickup to leading ignitors
From trailing mag. pickup to trailing ignitor
From C on each ignitor to (-) on their own coil
From B on each ignitor to (+) on their own coil
I have all the above ready.
now for ignition switch:
1.Do I have to put a wire from ignition to (+) on all coils???
2.Are they sharing the same ignition wire???
3.Where in fusebox would I get this from???
Sorry that i'm being a pain-in-ass. But don't want to screw anything up for the Sunday's Autox.
TIA
Omid
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 02, 2002 09:25 PM |
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1. Yes
2. Yes
3. From the same source your old ignition system used, unless you're starting out with a non running car. Either way, it's the one that is on when the key is switched to On and Start. Use a test light to determine this.
4. Hook up all B terminals to the same wire as all (+).
A pain-in-the-ass? No, not really. Good luck!
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 02, 2002 09:31 PM |
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ok it's all in, now i have to find a place to mount the coils, probably on the driver strut tower.
One more Q, does the capacitor (aka condensor) connects to the (+) cable on the coils as well??
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 03, 2002 09:38 AM |
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That question was answered in the article. Is this for your RX-7? If so, why are you asking so many questions on this forum? Was it just your way of getting answers from me specifically? Well, to tell you the truth, I've never worked on ignition on an RX-7 before. I can't tell you where to put the coils because, frankly, I'm not sure. All I've ever done is to add a third coil to the two coil bracket that's already there in an REPU.
You're into racing, right? You do lots of custom work to get the car ready for the race, don't you? Why not ask in a forum where others have done the same?
This is a great 1st gen forum. http://www.mazspeed.host.sk/forum/main.php Some of the people there have even hooked up DLIDFIS and they'll know if it's against the rules for certain race classes. Worth checking out.
Oh, and incase you don't know the URL of the latest updated version of my article, here it is: http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/ I believe all the questions you've been asking here were already answered in the article.
By the way, the answer to your question is Yes. It does hook to the same wire that all the (+) and B terminals hook to. I'm sorry you had so much trouble with DLIDFIS. :(
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 03, 2002 10:29 AM |
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Sorry to get you mad or anything.
Last time I asked you something on the other forums, it took like 2 weeks to answer. But on here, it seems like you answer faster. Plus i'm pretty sure most of the stuff I asked are useful to next person that decides to do this.
Thanks,
Omid
PS. I will post some pictures of the setup, since I haven't seen any for RX-7's
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 03, 2002 08:55 PM |
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OK IT'S DONE.
To anyone who hasn't done this already, you better start looking for some ignitors, this thing is sweet. The car sounds so much better and I can feel some low-end torque with my butt-dyno. Plus I've cought myself couple of time revving it too high :D
Thanks Jeff for all the help. I'll see how the car preforms at autox tommorow.
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 04, 2002 12:28 AM |
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Well, regardless of whether I was mad in the past or not, I'm glad you got it working! :) That makes it all worthwhile. I only got mad because I wrote the article specifically to answer everyone's questions, so that they wouldn't have to seek me out, like you did. That's all. No prob though, 'cause you got it working!
Yeah, those other forums are too active to keep track of. I only check out a fraction of them on a regular basis. Heh, I couldn't believe peejay got up past 5000 posts recently (I was there as he hit 5k and sent him a PM about it).
Ok, good luck with your car! And don't get in trouble! :)
Speaking of looking for some ignitors, I'm currently looking for cheap alternatives to the expensive J109s. How many of you are familier with GM HEI ignitors? They're the ones that sit inside the distributor housing. They are cheap and plentiful at your local car parts store. I just need to find out if they will accept Mazda pickup signals and what their spark duration is. The compensation will also be different, so if you're going to use them, don't have any J109s on the truck because this will cause a L/T split drift (similar to using an MSD on Leading and a J109 on Trailing like so many people use). It's all or nothing, basically.
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Tom93R1
Redlining
Posts: 458
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posted August 04, 2002 12:31 AM |
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I had no idea the J109 ignitors were such a sought after commodity. Maybe I will start a collection of them next time I hit the wrecking yard :)
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'74 lawn-green
4-port 13b
Weber 48DCO
Racing Beat Header
Magnaflow
resonator/amplifier
really loud!
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 04, 2002 12:40 AM |
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Yeah, before I first took the plunge and mentioned my ignition experiments online, a thought occured to me. I realised that the info I was going to present would cause a major shortage of J109s in the world. In some ways I regret it, but in other ways I guess the scientist in me was the victor. I think about this often.
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bcrx7
1st Gear
Posts: 11
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posted August 04, 2002 11:23 AM |
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actually I remember reading on a site about some old computer having a transistor that has similar characteristic to the J109. I have to see if I can find the site and look up the part number or something.
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BC and Vancouver RX-7 Club
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 05, 2002 08:57 AM |
 Edited By: Jeff20B on 6 Aug 2002 11:37 |
Yeah, try to find that info!
If I could build my own ignitors, I would. Hmm, maybe with today's technology it may actually be quite easy to do? All I'd need is a big power transistor and some sort of switching circuit and amplifier circuit. Or maybe those GM ones would be just as inexpensive as the parts I'd need to get for my homemade ones?
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Uncle-Jim
Revvin Up
Posts: 64
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posted August 05, 2002 01:59 PM |
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Replacements for J109's
Guys, The stock Mazda system, (and all other HEI types), are really just the old inductive switched Kettering ign's with newer technology, like better coils and transistors instead of points. Some researchers, like Jacobs, have found that the ultra fast rise time of CD sparks, often doesn't ignite the fuel until the 2nd and 3rd hit. This is why most CD boxes have gone to Multi-strike.
I've experimented with both, and find the inductive systems to be as consistent as Cd's even tho the Cd has a lot more energy in the spark. In a rotary, the cool, moving intake charge tends to blow-out the spark, and not fully burn. Also, a good deal of the spark energy is lost through the distributor. This is way the stock system is a little marginal. So Mazda went to direct coils in the 2nd and 3rd gen cars. I have a friend with an '88 Rx-7 who regularly gets 30-31 mpg. (F.I. and cpu control help a lot here as well.)
Here's my disclaimer: I haven't yet built the DFDLIS for my cars, but I've seen it in others. It seems to work so well because of the nice long spark of an inductive discharge, and the coil direct to the plug eliminates losses.
Now to the actual point of this. There is nothing unusual about J109's. They just ground the low side of the coil in time with signals from the pickup coil. I see no reason why a GM Hei chip wouldn't do the same thing. You just have to know where the connections for: +12v; ground; coil; + and - from the pick-up are on this chip.
I've also come across a couple of boxes I want to try. They are MSD "Blaster Ign." and "MSD-5". These are both inductive types designed to work on points or pick-ups. Jegs has them for a reasonable price: $70-80 ea. I suspect the internal design is like a J109, with a bit more input tolerance.
Anybody who has tried this, please share; otherwise I will be happy to send along what I find out. There is nothing on a rotary that needs more help than the ignition.
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Uncle Jim
72 Rx-2 Show Car; '77 REPU (250K & goin' strong) 2 - '76 Cosmo's
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Jeff20B
Moderator
Posts: 661
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posted August 05, 2002 02:47 PM |
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